Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER You didn't comment on this.
The M3 is not the prettiest car either, but to each his own. It always greets you with a snarl and a frown. It gnashes its teeth at you for no apparant reason. Nasty, just plain nasty. Chevies just smile at you. 
Looks are a subjective thing and as such I prefer the looks of the M3. The Vette's rear is odd with the wide flanks with the edges on it. The Vette is attractive, but I wish it were 7/8th scale.
There's also far more to making a car handle than just putting better tires and limiting suspension travel. I know you simply didn't wish to go into detail and that is fine. But if it were so simple one would find Lotus Elise, Integra Type R and... BMW M3 handling cars on every street corner. They simply aren't there, though.
A Japanese consulting firm spent 5 years at Porsche, BMW and Daimler to show them how to build cars. The 3 series before this current model is totally built with Japanese know how, as was the first C class Merc. The last E series is built exactly the same as a Toyota Camry by design and if it were not for this car, DB, now DC, would be out of bussiness.
I am well aware of Porsche purchasing Japanes machinery for construction/assembly of some of it's cars in the late 80's and if a Japanese consulting company did visit the "Big Three" [Germans, that is] what of it? Would you have me believe that the Germans did not know how to build a rigid, lightweight body? I think they were probably looking for more cost efficient ways of doing same, no?
It cost them $1 billion to list on the NY Stock Exchange so they have access to cheap capital. Benchmark indeed. I have been to all three factories and what did I see? Corvettes. Even the benchmark performance for the F360 was a Vette.
It shows in D-B's products if you ask me... They've "feminized" their products to the point that no longer notice them on the road.
Honda has publicly [I'm searching for the article] claimed that the 3 Series was in their sights for the new Civic Platform. It shows in the RS-X. It'll be interesting to drive the Acura RS-X Type R to see what the body/chassis feels like. From what I've read in Australian mags it no longer is as fun to drive, but we're discussing chassis rigidity here.
If it means anything to you 'we' [GM... I'm no longer employed with them] took Vettes to Stuttgart, Deutschland to run the cars on Porsche's durability track/schedule and would you care to guess how well they fared?... All cars failed. Rather miserably. Now I assume [I know] the C-5 is a much better car than the C-4, but the Porsche is also a better car, too [minus the looks and the cheaper construction methods... and the interior bits and pieces.]
The Germans know a thing or two about machinery. From the ubiquitous firearm to rocketry. They make very expensive things - which I concede that the Japanese re-engineer a thing, pull out 25% of the cost and return 85% of the Objective performance. However, the Subjective feel is 9 times out of 10 not there.
BTW, the only Japanese car I've driven that remotely reminds me of a German car the Honda Integra Type R [which is why I snapped one up]: solid body, well damped suspension, 'feelsome' steering, rock solid, Porsche-like brake feel [they don't fade easily either] and has 'character' in the spades. Yes, there is vibration in the steering wheel and shift lever and a low guttural engine note at part throttle. Give the car the steering of a Ford Puma or even a Ford Focus and I'd rate it a perfect 10.00 instead of a 9.75. So I KNOW they are perfectly capable of it.
The RS-X has a BMW-like feel to it as well - assuming BMW would ever venture to make a FF car... NOT Likely! How so? The same rigid body which allows the suspension to react as it should. The Subaru WRX has the same feel, though it's somewhat loathsome material choices let it down somewhat.
The only German manufacturer that admits to this Japanese intervention is Porsche. See the story in Christophorus, the Porsche magazine, June '94. The Japanese have shown them how to become profitable, high volume producers. Audi is the best value in German cars.
Again, Porsche sought assistance in lowering manufacturing costs while retaining function. The 911 body was and still is very rigid.
The McPherson strut and the cast iron semi trailing arm on the M3 is the best I've seen. It's obvious that a Pushrod engine is smaller than a DOHC engine of similar configuration. So what's your point?. $$$$$$$$ Price/ value/ quality.
The same holds true for the suspension bits does it not? The Bavarian car slaloms just as quickly or damned near so as the Z06 according to a comparison in, I think, Motor Trend. Obviously, the Vette is the faster car with superior power. Recall that the same logic can be applied to the leaf spring, halfshafts and the method of valve operation... not to mention build quality [see any Consumer Reports, JD Powers or 'Things Gone Wrong' (TGW internal reports) reports]. When I was at GM the Y car [Vette] and F car [Camaro/Firebird] had the worst build quality of the entire fleet. I hope that it isn't still true as I truly wish for the Vette to compete favorably with the European cars in more than just Objective performance numbers. What works works.
It's all apples and oranges, really. M Car vs 'Vette.
$$$$$$$$
The Chevy V8 has won more races than any other engine with little factory help. It also costs the least to build, which is great for the stock holder. They have a race series here for completly stock cars, save for safety items, and even $25,000 Camaros beat those teutonic upholstered roller skates.
I also look at competition heritage so I'd almost always take a Porsche 911, BMW M3, Subaru WRX, Mitsubishi EVO VII or Integra Type R over a similarly fast car without that heritage [all other things being equal]. But that's me. I'd imagine not 1 in a 1,000 persons look at cars with that type of narrow-band filtering...
Are you saying that Camaros with 5.7L V8s will solidly outperform the somewhat portly E46 M3? The Camaros had nearly 100 bhp power advantage over the E36 M3. I don't think the results will be the same this year.
That may be true for all forms of racing, but more than likely not true for SPORTS CAR RACING. Besides we're discussing the CAR not just the engine. I have no problem with the 5.7L engine. I simply wish GM would spend $1,500 and further increase the rigidity of the chassis and upgrade all interior materials and a general "fit and finish" upgrade. Even today the Vette's chassis isn't particularly stiff. I recall 24 Hz for first torsion. My ITR is approximately 35 Hz... Stiffer is better. The Honda S2000 is around 32 Hz as well and it's a convertible. I know most drivers don't play hard enough to warrant the $$ increase for this, but I'd like to see the car better in ALL regards than my econobox-based front wheel drive car. Well, since it's larger and the body is made of fiberglass it would be difficult without the addition of some steel components, but it could be [should be?] done.
There's room for both in my world. But if I had only room for one in my garage it would be the Bavarian car. Vive la difference! Meet you over at the autox event. Make sure that you bring a trailer. We're still buddies? 
Of course we're still buddies! Sports Car and Sports Sedan people are a rare thing in the US. I don't own an M3, but I'd like to. I'm not really into Vettes, but after engineering the LT-1Y and driving them on a daily basis I have much respect for what they are. My "dream car" would be a Subaru Impreza WRX STi RA Spec C or Mitsubishi EVO VII or a Porsche 996 GT3 [better yet a [b]Porsche 993 RS[/b] or even the new 996 Carrera]. The Lotus Elise is damned near perfect and I have the Honda Integra Type R. A Ferrari 360 Modena would be interesting as well.
I don't think the BMW will need a trailer [and neither should the Vette] and the Vette should be easier [maybe] to drive at the limit... at least they are easier attained, but it should be an interesting event in the hands of a very qualified driver in a back-to-back 'run what you brung' type of event.
I consider you lucky to own a Z06 as it's a wonderful performance car. Check out the C5 Registry on the web. There is a very nice article on the LS-6 that I think you'll drool over.
